WOMEN'S WRESTLING DEBATES
 WITH THE DEBATE TOPICS THERE IS A PANEL OF WRESTLING IDENTITIES THAT GIVE THEIR OPINION ON THE DEBATE TOPIC YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF JOINING THE DEBATE BY ADDING YOUR OPINION BY EMAILING TO THE LINK ATTACHED TO THIS SITE. WRESTLERS AND ASSOCIATED PEOPLE TO THE WRESTLING INDUSTRY AS WELL AS FANS ARE ENCOURAGED TO RESPOND. INDUSTRY PEOPLE CAN ADD A PHOTO IF THEY WISH TO THEIR REPLY. YOUR OPINIONS WILL BE ADDED SO THAT PEOPLE CAN VIEW THE GENERAL CONSENSUS.
DEBATE TOPIC
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THE PANELISTS COMMENTS
 THE PANEL

Penny Banner - The First AWA World Women's Champion & one of the all time greats in Women's Wrestling.
Amy Action - 8 Years experience in Women's Professional Wrestling in Australia.
Poison Ivy - 3 Years experience in Women's Professional Wrestling in Australia.
Storm - 3 Years experience in Women's Professional Wrestling in Australia.
Mace - 3 Years experience in Professional Wrestling in Australia.
Joe Super - 10 Years experience writing on wrestling, 2 years commentating & wrestling webmaster.

DEBATING TOPIC
    "Although as wrestlers, women may temporarily occupy the central position of the male defined space, their performance ultimately intersect the pornographic with the male audiences response predictably and aggressively, obscene."
   Quote from Sharon Mazer's book "Professional Wrestling, Sport & Spectacle."

Comment on the above quote. How do you think men view women's wrestling, purely as T&A as represented in this quote, or as a contest, similar to how they view men's wrestling or otherwise.

THE PANELISTS COMMENTS

PENNY BANNER
 FIRST OF ALL...Women in wrestling have always been a "draw" ..even with their clothes on from as far back as the 40s ..HOwever..in those days, the women COULD WRESTLE and were respected for their athletic ability..AND the Commissioners and Promoters respected them too..
The scantily clad girls of today's soap opera ....w/hair falls..cosmetic surgery..false nails..and revealing outfits were not hired to wrestle....they were hired to be 'eye candy' which puts even more MONEY in the promotions pocket from drawing the young guys/boys to the matches to SEE in PERSON what a woman half clad looks like, then left to go home and use their imagination~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!
These women do not care that "THEY WERE USED", they are just enjoying their notoriety and pay checks.......
I DEFINITELY feel that when a promoter suggests these outfits to be worn, it is purely T&A...and a disgrace to the sport of professional woman wrestling...
Furthermore...when WCW had the Nitro girls...I thought they were marvelous and looked fantastic in there respectful outfits........They alone would draw the boys/men.......so, in order to out do the ratings of them..the opposite promotion WWE now...decided to go that step further and bring what use to be called women wrestling....to AN ALL TIME LOW..on a professional level.......

AMY ACTION
From my experience I have found that you cant lump everyone into one basket. Through my website I have received many comments and compliments on my wrestling ability, from males that have congratulated me on "not doing the wwe thing" as they put it, yet at the same time I can think of at least one male off the top of my head that comes to see all my matches and yells out obscene comments at me and thinks that its the NORMAL thing to do. Normally copied sayings from the WWE which I blame the promoters for. I don't remember male crowd members calling out such things during the Jumping Bomb Angels stint in the WWF, Somehow Women's wrestling has managed to take a few backwards steps in America. I think also sometimes it comes down to whether the male in question is a devoted wrestling fan and you as a female wrestler are a hard working skillful individual that can be taken seriously. Unfortunately a lot of the wrestling seems to have been forfeited today for more talking/comedy/etc which in turn has lost a lot of support from the true wrestling fans.
On a personal level I know for myself that since I am currently training over 20 males in Professional wrestling that I must be viewed otherwise and hopefully that is first and foremost as a wrestler and a trainer.

POISON IVY
Firstly I'd like to point out that I don't think this is an issue relating only to men, and that just as many women view Women's Wrestling as pornographic, aggressive or obscene. I don't think that we, as wrestlers, should get ourselves worked up over any one portion of the audiences opinion of what we are doing as we are, as women, portrayed in whatever manner the promoter of the show, and thereby the audience, wishes to portray us.

Now obviously there are many men who enjoy watching fit, healthy, sexy women wrestle each other and whether they enjoy this for the spectacle that is wrestling or for the sight of said healthy female bodies is probably not that relevant to the actual position of women; in the industry. Some men undoubtedly do view women's wrestling as nothing but a perve, but I think its important to point out that some men view everything that all women do as a bit of a perve. They perve on women at the beach, they perve on women playing any sport. Just as many female tennis players are viewed as being in the position they are in for their looks and not their talent as women wrestlers.

Take Anna Kournikova for example. She's one of the most famous and most recognized women in the world and she is not one of the very top female tennis players, but she receives the most exposure because of her willingness to use her looks to gain a high public profile. Its exactly the same in wrestling. Undoubtedly some men are watching women's wrestling as part of the entire show, and they are enjoying the athleticism, the dedication and the performance, and probably to a degree they are also enjoying it for the fact that in general men find women attractive. Especially two of them....

Part of the problem in how women wrestlers are viewed relates to the women themselves. We can never be portrayed as all being b grade porn wannabees unless one of us ALLOWS herself to be portrayed that way, and if some women do that, then that is their choice. Some women; want to be seen as being sexy before they are viewed as a wrestler or a performer and its these women that in the end are viewed in a less than flattering light as being nothing more than a nice butt and some very expensive implants, while other women take great care to always be seen first and foremost as a wrestler. When the WWE was full of attractive girls with little wrestling experience everyone went on about how they want to see women doing actual wrestling as opposed to a T&A parade. When they introduce real women's wrestling there's always a percentage of the audience that wants it to be no more than a beauty contest. There will always be some people that want to see the person they find the most attractive win. There will always be people who can't differentiate between talent and sex appeal.

I realize that the role of women in wrestling can be viewed as glorified and gratuitous titillation but I also think that we must be aware of general trends throughout society. Today there is no shame in a woman displaying her body, women actively seek out roles where they get to display the work and effort they've put into being seen as fit and attractive in every walk of life. Mainstream celebrities, such as Jennifer Lopez, Holly Valance and Kirstin Dunst regularly appear scantily clad or even semi naked in men's magazines. Are they viewed as nothing but T&A? They probably are, by a percentage of their audience. It's like that old saying "you cant please everyone" because you cant. Its very dangerous to decide that a small percentage, or even a large one, is indicative of the entire audiences opinion, because that gives that percentage control of the performance, and as wrestlers, its our job to control the response of that audience, not the other way around.

In the end you'll find that there are women who watch wrestling for nothing more than the perve value, and these women get more perve opportunities than the men watching for the same reason, simply because wrestling is a male dominated profession by virtue of the fact that the men vastly outnumber the women. But if you're a woman of any age who wants to see sweaty, built, well presented men role-play then you'll love a wrestling show, and have numerous chances to indulge the eye. Nobody bats an eyelid about this. I know on our show that many, many young girls are there simply because they have a thing for one of the guys (well, one of three of the guys). I also know that in general the bad girl gets to be seen as promiscuous, wanton and kinda cheap whilst the good girl, the face, gets to be seen as a classic beauty and an athlete. Its not about us, its about the image we are portraying. Its easy to get a "slutty" girl across as bad, the easiest way to portray that is to appear in not very many clothes. And if some women are viewed as nothing more than visual sexual gratification objects then we have to accept that this is how society WANTS to view us.

We are only here to entertain, not change the world and if that's how they want us, then some of us surely are going to give them what they want. I think that what really matters is that people are seeing us wrestle, whether they're watching for the possibility of a perve, or because they just like wrestling, or they like our performance or even those who even watch for reasons they don't understand, they ARE watching, and therefore they DO have an opinion so I suppose that means that no matter what, women's wrestling is successful. Its getting a reaction, people are watching. Now all we have to do is try to ensure that there is a balance between the sexually oriented and the serious wrestling so that a cross section of women is represented.

THUNDERSTORM
Generally, some but not all men look at Female Pro Wrestling and think of one thing. I strongly believe if it's ok for men to wrestle with each other and it not be classed as anything sexual, then why is it that when females wrestle each other it is classed as being sexual entertainment. Wrestling is Art, Sport and Entertainment, however it is not sexual entertainment. If it were I surely wouldn't see myself doing the sport and I'm sure some of the female Pro Wrestlers wouldn't do that either, unless there are not there for wrestling.

MACE
As far as I am concerned women's wrestling in the Western civilization is purely eye candy. While some have incredible talent, it still doesn't make it good. (Molly Holly v's Trish Stratus) While Molly is an excellent wrestler Trish isn't and the match inevitably sucks because one of the girls is just eye candy while the other is still only perceived as eye candy regardless of her obvious talents. Personally I don't like the women's wrestling for me it just doesn't do anything, it may be because of the poor quality of American's Women's Wrestling (WWE) or it could be the Japanese stuff I have seen where the Women just do dangerous and moronic stuff to get cheap heat (they would get as much heat if not more by taking their clothes off). I think in the Western wrestling world women are only there for the guys to hoot and holler at, to get the 15 to 25 male demographic and it works only when they stick to what they are good at, bras and panties matches etc. As for Eastern women's wrestling its just mind numbing stupidity that I wouldn't watch even if it were men were doing it. As I said the women should stick to managing or being a valet, if they must get in the ring they should get their gear off. Now if you'll excuse me I must watch the women's Armageddon match from 1999:)

JOE SUPER
It is portrayed as T&A. The WWE audience couldn't care less about an athletic contest of any sort, so what makes you think that putting women in the ring would make them care. It's all about the "entertainment" not about the contest. When you hear Jerry Lawler squaking about the size of Molly Holly's behind rather than talking about her athletic prowess or the angle or match in progress, what do you think they are pushing? This is a great shame as WWE has great women wrestlers like Molly, Jackie, Jazz & the improving Trish Stratus on their roster, with many others such as Brandi Alexander, Little Jeanne, Lexie Fyfe and others just waiting for their chance.

In Japan, it's a vastly different story with All Japan, GAEA, ARSION, LLPW & NEO are strong with a great depth of talent. It is viewed as a contest and a fierce one at that. However the girls in Japan do photo shoots but the product in the ring remains a contest. It's a shame the WWE can't manage to do same.
YOUR RESPONSES
two responses from viewers to this site have been added 15/09/02 read below for their input

WWE (formally WWF owned Vince McMahon) & and maybe 1 or 2 others are doing these days DOESN'T get my stamp of approval. A bylaw should come into all wrestling divisions, males in-particular to out Valets and porn wrestlers trying to do their moves in the ring when they aren't actually involved in wrestling matches. It was Madusa who said and was referring to Missy Hyatt in a magazine 10 years ago. Wrestling Classic produced by Pro wrestling Illustrated by Captain Lou Albano. (spring 1992 edition) with - Ann Casey Magnificent mimi, Missy Hyatt, Elizabeth, Woman and Madusa on the front cover. She (Madusa) said after a match, "Valets are hurting the image of womens wrestling" - Page 32 - 34. Also of the tickets that are sold, what percentage of Males actually come to see the matches? I(as a fan) wouldn't buy video tapes with type of stuff on it. When I as a fan follow wrestling. I expected to see wrestling matches. And I may have Doubt now weather I would actually want to take a young fan to an event with valets doing moves. Yours in wrestling Telagi (fan)

As an avid 'purist' wrestling fan over many years, from being a kid in the sixties and seventies watching and attending the Jack Little promoted shows at Festival Hall (Melbourne) and watching world championship wrestling, roller derbyetc on the box, I agree with Ms. Banner that a well rounded performance between two properly ( more traditionally clad) ladies is as much an entertainment spectacle as any mens match. The T & A component has crept in to recent shows and whilst the WWE may have a huge following it is as much for the soap operatic display rather than a strong wrestling storyline. As a male, I must concur with Poison Ivy that there is no doubt a degree of ' perve ' but that surely is the same with women watching men perfom, be it wrestling, football, on the beach etc. There's possibly and probably a same gender ' perve ' element to be considered. My view is that not enough focus is paid to the womens ranks, perhaps too few performers, perhaps too few opportunities, and perhaps its about time the promoters just allowed reasonably clad ( and I mean suitably attired to wrestle) women to write up their own script, develop some ' hatred' and let them ' settle' it in the ring. The only proviso being, that the said women cna actually wrestle, with a knowledge of holds, the ability to sell a move, take the bump, groan and wince when necessary and play up to the crowd if a heel, or beguile if a face. Good wrestling to all, and hope the womens divisions swell and prosper without the requiremnt of T & A to sell it. SJE.
© Amy Action 2003.